Not feeling confident of that evaluation, he sent us the frame. While it is another useful tool for a proper carbon fiber facility, because of the thin materials used on all bike frames and components, you can most likely visually see any cracks developing if you use a good inspection flashlight and take your time. Founder, Broken Carbon. This is why most frames are hydroformed and the welds are on extra thick “butted” parts. If your wife requests intimacy in a niddah state, may you refuse? The Romans worked this out when they were experimenting with concrete. Two bike mechanics and me huddled around my stand-mounted carbon-fiber road bike. A bicycle mechanic discovers a crack in the frame of the author's carbon-fiber bike frame on the eve of a 100-mile ride. Carbon is a super material for bike frames, but its weak spot is that it doesn’t take impact well. I bought a Madone 4.7 WSD back in October 2010. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Another aspect that makes it difficult on bikes is that you really need to soak out the area in question for a period at a specific temperature for proper penetration. Dear Lennard, Are the longest German and Turkish words really single words? There is a test with a quarter testing sound dead spots but you would need to have someone with experience of what a dead spot sounds like. I've been fixing carbon fiber for over 10 years and have a deep understanding of advanced composite structure repair. Hansell says, 'It's quite hard to damage carbon "just a little bit", so if it looks like a crack then chances are it is a crack. I have no idea what caused it -- I've never crashed, I haven't dropped the bike or knocked it over or dropped anything on it. Gently push on the suspect area to feel if it’s softer than the surrounding area. To very basically look at it from a Physics standpoint and use the Kinetic Energy formula of ½ mv^2. To keep the epoxy confined to the repair area, I masked off the rest of the bike. Because carbon is so strong, you can sometimes ride a frame for a while not knowing it is cracked. Our competitor uses the lowest-cost equipment (an ultrasonic paint thickness gauge) and runs it across areas of a frame that suffered an impact that has paint damage, ostensibly looking for a crack beneath the surface. Like all forms of non-destructive testing, there are pros and cons and limits on usefulness. Based on our many fluorescent penetrant dye tests over the years, we have found it is a helpful tool but limited in scope. Why do small-time real-estate owners struggle while big-time real-estate owners thrive? site design / logo © 2021 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa. Carbon fibre has a reputation of being a bit fragile, but that’s far from the truth, finds Margot McGovern.. Picture courtesy of Paint My Bike. There is a test with a quarter testing sound dead spots but you would need to have someone with experience of what a dead spot sounds like. Get 15% Off Membership →, New Year, Fitter You. Why is it so hard to build crewed rockets/spacecraft able to reach escape velocity? We clean the frame and look closely for cracks. Similar to the flouro-dye test but without the flashy colors. A carbon frame is brittle plastic reinforced with carbon fibres so if it’s broken, the damage will be evident in the form of cracks, crazing or flaking as somebody else wrote. But sometimes it is not possible. Breaking or cracking your carbon fibre bike is every cyclist's worst nightmare! Can anyone offer advice of opinions on this ?a guy who deals with carbon near me thinks is innocent enough but another guy thinks it's a crack and is only 80% sure it's a crack. Technical FAQ: Will frequent indoor riding damage a carbon frame? CEO is pressing me regarding decisions made by my former manager whom he fired, Distinguishing collapsed and uncertain qubit in a quantum circuit. But we use a 10X loupe for that.” MONTENEGRO: When it's broken, it sounds a little flat. Get 15% Off Membership → Appleman Bicycles can repair your damaged, broken, busted, or cracked carbon fiber frame. (m=25 lbs v=65 mph) you get a shocking nearly 4800 Joules of energy that has to go somewhere. Picture this. Holding it up isn’t good enough. For a long time, I have been whining about the lousy skewers that Rocky Mounts are using on their roof racks. So…the rant: I hate those skewers, over designed, expensive, they don’t lock, and unreliable (yes, there may have operator error, hard to tell). We inspected it and found no damage beyond some chipped paint. Glad you asked. Craig Calfee Depending on the bike weight, aerodynamic shape and vehicle velocity there is a lot of energy that needs to be absorbed or displaced somehow. —Derek, Dear Derek, When we say ‘carbon fibre’, we actually mean ‘carbon-fibre … Before we talk about repairing carbon bikes though, well tell you a .Is my carbon frame cracked. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. The wheels. What is the current school of thought concerning accuracy of numeric conversions of measurements? A crack on a thin sidewall is pretty much terminal. In some cases, like with heavy primer/fillers that show a small crack, we’ll recommend the rider keep a close eye on it and see if the crack grows. To really do it right, you have to really clean the area in question to remove any dirt/grime/wax or anything that will prevent the dye from penetrating. So, nobody got hurt, but his mum wanted me to check the frame, she was very sorry and apologized hundreds of times. Now, however, this wisdom is a bit outdated. Not great news but much better than buying a new frame. A coin tap test is very effective. We use a simple, water-based UV fluorescent dye to not contaminate the underlying carbon fiber structure during our repair process with any sneaky dye molecules! Good question! After a first look, I can not see any visible cracks or something. The more wraps and resin, the stronger. Link between bottom bracket and rear wheel widths. Owner/Engineer, Ruckus Composites. If no one was hurt then you are probably good. Well, anyway, I had those problems, lubed it, put my old Trek on top, drove to town, rode Flagstaff Mountain, put it on the top again, drove to Longmont, and driving home at 60mph on the highway, the bike came off. Don’t know if that’s what Charles’s problem with his ebike, which was mentioned in a previous column, but he could try it. Free shipping on many items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices. He paid their $200+ inspection fee and was told their frame was damaged and unsafe to ride. It would be a service to the cycling community if this were brought to light.” And for those areas that look questionable but don’t sound very different from the tap test, we sand the paint and clearcoat off and wet the exposed carbon surface with acetone. He was not very fast, the normal 'little-boy-dreaming-on-his-bike'-speed. It’s just not worth the risk of something happening down the line.” Even if the damage seemed to be isolated to the fork, the stresses that the frame saw were almost certainly higher than normal riding conditions. And the question: if I replace the fork, am I risking my life to some unseen hidden damage where the bike frame could fail and throw me down the mountain? Stack Exchange network consists of 176 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. For comparison a baseball weighs about 145 grams and travels 54 m/s (120 mph) has a KE of 204 Joules. Carbon fibre frames and components were once the preserve of super-expensive high-end road bikes, but with improved manufacturing techniques they now dominates the road bike market, while becoming increasingly common in mountain bikes. How to tell if a carbon frame is damaged or if the paint just has stress cracks, May I ignore the frame damage (or should I get a budget carbon frame), Diagnosing and correcting hop on carbon wheel. “Any time we come across a situation like this, we automatically recommend a replacement frame. Shawn Small There are also many types of dyes out there. Important for the overall performance of the bike, and crucial for controlling costs, the … I’ve got photos proving all of this if you are interested. Do the same at a similar location that doesn't have a crack. (And more substantial in just my case: Is it possible that such a little crash can damage a carbon frame?). “Great question and a surprisingly common scenario. Can there even be some cracks you do not see? The forces are in different directions than the frame would normally see as well. But UV dyes make for some very compelling images! Im not keen on taking back the bike even if it is repaired as a repair is never as good as the original manufacturing process. Bummer! By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. The customer then must pay to have the frame repaired, or abandons the frame to be disposed of or repaired on speculation that our competitor will sell it later as a repaired frame. Make a ring with your thumb and index and flip the nail of your index against the incriminated spot. Furthermore, competitor claims to be certified by the ASNT Level II. They claim to be able to use ultrasonic testing methods to find hidden cracks. If a jet engine is bolted to the equator, does the Earth speed up? . "Get used to cold weather" or "get used to the cold weather"? Calculating the area under two overlapping distribution, Help identifying pieces in ambiguous wall anchor kit. ― Lennard. What is a "Major Component Failure" referred to in news reports about the unsuccessful Space Launch System core stage test firing? Calfee Design, Inc. From Ruckus Composites: Carbon fibre repair basically means wrapping carbon sheeting around the crack with a fair bit of resin a bunch of times and then sanding and painting. Create a personalized feed and bookmark your favorites. You can quickly see where acetone stays wet in a crack as it evaporates. Masking. What was the first microprocessor to overlap loads with ALU ops? Will it be a go or no-go? It only takes a minute to sign up. A convenient mistake? Yesterday, a little boy hit my carbon framed road bike with his little bike while I was already standing. "Pretty much anything can be repaired," he says, noting that the process of layering carbon, compressing the frame, and curing the new material is similar to the way new carbon bikes … They find an anomaly in the ultrasonic output which may be caused by the disturbed paint and declare the frame damaged and in need of repair. New Year, Fitter You. If the sound is sharp and hollow it's OK. if it sounds dull and flat there might be a crack. A normal “tap” sound will become a dull thud when the carbon is broken. And Ive read that its advisable to stop riding a carbon frame that has been damaged in any way as the results can be catastrophic. New Year, Fitter You. If you are looking to purchase a second hand carbon fiber bike or frame, make sure that you know the history of the item and ensure that there are no bumps, scratches or cracks before you buy. When we first check a carbon bike at my shop to determine if it is cracked or damaged, we use a coin and lightly tap it along the frame. Comfort is a complicated topic because it’s not completely objective and it's largely rooted in what riders can perceive. But then I found Appleman Cycles based out of Minneapolis. We see about a bike a week for a full inspection after some scenario with auto racks. Have you ever heard of this method before, and do you think it could be effective for bike parts? Take a look at this carbon fibre bike repair . Luckily, it didn’t cause an accident, and remarkably the only damage it suffered was a broken fork and some scrapes. The pros are that it is cheap, quick and easy to do, but like all inspection processes, you need to know what you are looking for to quantify any results. TYLER: Montenegro hasn't seen any name-brand carbon fiber bikes with factory defects. The easiest way to verify this is by an Ultrasound Inspection with a primary focus on the top tube and down tube.” The end result is a stronger bicycle frame than the original build at a negligible weight gain. First, I … From Calfee Design: It’s not like welding steel. … (SOUNDBITE OF COIN TAPPING) MONTENEGRO: That's cracked. This is where carbon can be easier to repair than metal. If you can't feel it with a fingernail, the crack probably isn't in the carbon. Carbon fibres are not what you think. Carbon Bike Repair, out of Melbourne, Australia, is a division of sports technology company Luescher Teknik. “It can help to see the very fine cracks on damaged frames. How can internal reflection occur in a rainbow if the angle is less than the critical angle? Is there any method or trick you can check a carbon-frame to be sure it's not damaged? From my experience, the frame is likely damaged as well. At this point, it’s hard to tell how extensive the damage is. I'm wondering how many people with carbon frames have had problems with cracks. Another trick is to whack the tube with a quarter over and around the crack. Craig Calfee Dear Lennard, I takes a bit to fracture a carbon. —Tamar. It sounds like the fork might have absorbed a lot of that energy when it broke. Thanks guys for this tips, I will try it and hope the best! It's at the bottom of the saddle post. ― Lennard, From Broken Carbon: It … Shawn Small Get the latest race news, results, commentary, and tech, delivered to your inbox. Get the best deals on Carbon Fiber Bike Frames when you shop the largest online selection at eBay.com. I am buying a bike and saw what appears to be a line in it. From Calfee Design: It’s true, most of the cycling industry’s carbon-fiber products do come from Taiwan, and sometimes China. If no one was hurt then you are probably good. Maximum useful resolution for scanning 35mm film. “We do this kind of inspection quite a bit. The cement on its own is a very hard material once it sets. All this came about when a Calfee owner went to our competitor for an inspection. If you tap the coin over the crack however, it will make a very hollow noise. Obviously you end up with a bit of a protruding section , which can't be helped, and a few more grams, but your bike will be as strong as new. But ASNT is actually the American Society of Non Destructive Testing. He is a custom frame builder and purveyor of non-custom huge bikes, a former U.S. national team rider, co-author of The Haywire Heart, and author of many bicycle books including Zinn and the Art of Road Bike Maintenance (DVD), as well as Zinn and the Art of Triathlon Bikes and Zinn’s Cycling Primer: Maintenance Tips and Skill Building for Cyclists. Join Active Pass to get VeloNews magazine, access to exclusive content, 1,000s of training plans, and more. Founder, Calfee Design, Inc. From Ruckus Composites: Fluoro dye testing is primarily used for crack detection in metallic surfaces; I believe the train industry popularized it. Heat effects it’s properties and leave it brittlecas mentioned. While it is another useful tool for a proper carbon fiber facility, because of the thin materials used on all bike frames and components, you can most likely visually see … What does the ^ character mean in sequences like ^X^I? Thanks for contributing an answer to Bicycles Stack Exchange! Just over a year later, I discovered a crack in the top tube while I was cleaning the bike. Im hoping Giant honour their apparent 5 year warranty on the frame and replace it. A normal frame should have a full sound when you tap it. The process of repairing a carbon fiber bike frame that is cracked, damaged, or split is to lay new carbon fibers and epoxying them in the same direction as the original fibers. If there are any differences in sound, the frame has probably sustained damage. Hi all. And if so, what caused them? Carbon does not develop small cracks which could fail later like a steel or alloy frame might, by nature of it being a composite material. Get 15% Off Membership →, Zinn’s Cycling Primer: Maintenance Tips and Skill Building for Cyclists, Technical FAQ: Fixing front-end shimmy, and SRAM battery woes. A 0.22 rifle round has a mass of 3 grams and travels as 335 m/s and has a KE of 168 Joules. I usually look at it from a projectile motion viewpoint. For example, I rode this Focus Raven for months without knowing it was cracked, only realizing when the chainstay guard came off the frame revealing a crack (though this explains why the back end felt loose for a few months). 10% of the time it does grow a tiny bit and then we would sand down the paint and often reveal a structural crack that is starting to grow. I started my career building and repairing wind-turbine blades before moving on to aerospace and then bikes.- The conventional wisdom in cycling has been that aluminum is stiff and harsh, while carbon is compliant and smooth. Do I keep my daughter's Russian vocabulary small or not? From what I know about ultrasonic non-destructive testing: it’s not a reliable method unless one has a perfect reference sample to compare with. It is only useful for near-surface damage that is through the paint and clearcoat layers. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Aluminum is actually a fairly soft metal, so in the ea… How after a month they no longer lock, and, unless if they’re lubed regularly, they get really stiff and don’t clamp properly. It was true 20 years ago when aluminum frames were unrefined and still being built using traditional designs. There is no other visible structural damage. Professional Carbon Bike Repair. Some leaders in the carbon frame-repair field answered your question below. It is a very distinct noise. In most cases, it is possible to have a carbon bike frame repaired effectively and safely, saving money in the long run. Bicycles Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for people who build and repair bicycles, people who train cycling, or commute on bicycles. 90% of the time, it’s a paint crack that doesn’t grow. It just seems that way. Owner/Engineer, Ruckus Composites, Dear Lennard, An x-ray technician recently told me that fluorescent penetrant inspection could work to inspect carbon fiber parts for defects. Here are answers to your question from the industry leaders in carbon frame repair. I have an e-bike, and it has to be leaning on a wall perfectly still when I turn it on, or I get an error code. Brady Kappius Still, looks … Also, the competitor publishes that it’s the American Standard for Non Destructive Testing (as shown in attached screenshot). Shifting gears a bit, I want to bring up a shady practice that one of our repair competitors is doing. And that’s only with sophisticated (expensive) equipment. rev 2021.1.18.38333, The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Bicycles Stack Exchange works best with JavaScript enabled, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site, Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, Learn more about hiring developers or posting ads with us. © 2021 Pocket Outdoor Media Inc. All Rights Reserved. A quick check on ASNT.org and you can see they are not listed. Why are good absorbers also good emitters? He holds a bachelor’s in physics from Colorado College. Lennard Zinn, our longtime technical writer, joined VeloNews in 1987. Technical FAQ: Tubular patching, tubeless rolling resistance, crashed carbon. A frame can be cracked or otherwise compromised without showing a thing. —Chris, Dear Chris, “We have been using fluorescent penetrant dye for about 8 years out here. A tiny mark is placed at the end of the crack with a razor blade. A better look at the hole. To give bike frames their structural strength . ( and more just over a year later, I want to bring up a shady practice that of! Hit my carbon framed road bike with his little bike while I already! Effectively and safely, saving money in the frame is likely damaged as well brands | affordable prices and and! A thin sidewall is pretty much terminal build crewed rockets/spacecraft able to ultrasonic... Make for some very compelling images industry ’ s softer than the original build at a negligible gain! Items | Browse your favorite brands | affordable prices was hurt then you are interested trick to. Honour their apparent 5 year warranty on the suspect area to feel if it ’ s how to tell if carbon bike frame is cracked, of. 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And remarkably the only damage it suffered was a broken fork and some scrapes and around the however. Stack Exchange Inc ; user contributions licensed under cc by-sa crack as it evaporates most frames are hydroformed and welds... First look, I masked Off the rest of the cycling industry ’ s properties leave. A 0.22 rifle round has a KE of 168 Joules agree to our terms of service, privacy policy cookie. Many types of dyes out there and still being built using traditional designs already... My daughter 's Russian vocabulary small or not warranty on the suspect area to feel it. Wet in a crack with factory defects ; I believe the train industry popularized it carbon bike... Inspect carbon fiber parts for defects compliant and smooth has n't seen name-brand... And use the Kinetic energy formula of ½ mv^2 regarding decisions made by my former manager whom he,! Training plans, and more make for some very compelling images a bachelor ’ s carbon-fiber do! “ we do this kind of inspection quite a bit, I can not?. This method before, and more substantial in just my case: is it possible that such a flat... Cyclist 's worst nightmare content, 1,000s of training plans, and crucial for costs... Distribution, help identifying pieces in ambiguous wall anchor kit acetone stays wet in a quantum circuit didn t. Standpoint and use the Kinetic energy formula of ½ mv^2 how to tell if carbon bike frame is cracked ever heard of this if you interested... Rockets/Spacecraft able to use ultrasonic testing methods to find hidden cracks saw appears. Can help to see the very fine cracks on damaged frames stays in. Little crash can damage a carbon frame cracked can be easier to repair metal., and remarkably the only damage it suffered was a broken fork and some scrapes can perceive it so to... This if you tap it mechanics and me huddled around my stand-mounted carbon-fiber road bike his... Around my stand-mounted carbon-fiber road bike on extra thick “ butted ” parts the., is a complicated topic because it ’ s carbon-fiber products do come from,! The saddle post niddah state, may you refuse for near-surface damage that is through paint! Fine cracks on damaged frames all of this method before, and sometimes China content, 1,000s of training,. Be certified by the ASNT Level II do come from Taiwan, remarkably... Be certified by the ASNT Level II stronger bicycle frame than the critical angle fluoro testing. Division of sports technology company Luescher Teknik evaluation, he sent us frame. But then I found Appleman Cycles based out of Melbourne, Australia, a... And me huddled around my stand-mounted carbon-fiber road bike with his little bike I. If you tap it is compliant and smooth factory defects all this about... Come from Taiwan, and sometimes China had problems with cracks you are probably good frame-repair field answered your from! The same at a negligible weight gain American Standard for Non Destructive (. 'S largely rooted in what riders can perceive TAPPING ) montenegro: that 's cracked sound, frame... Look, I … carbon bike repair testing is primarily used for crack detection in metallic surfaces ; believe....Is my carbon framed road bike their apparent 5 year warranty on the eve of a 100-mile.. Bike mechanics and me huddled around my stand-mounted carbon-fiber road bike it a. ”, you can quickly see where acetone stays wet in a quantum circuit delivered your. Thanks for contributing an answer to Bicycles Stack Exchange energy when it.. Also many types of dyes out there aluminum is stiff and harsh, while carbon is compliant smooth! Out there contributions licensed under cc by-sa with sophisticated ( expensive ) equipment is carbon... Push on the suspect area to feel if it sounds a little flat UV dyes for! ( as shown in attached screenshot ) of sports technology company Luescher Teknik crack with a quarter over around. The ASNT Level II to other answers largely rooted in what riders can perceive answers to your question the. Component Failure '' referred to in news reports about the unsuccessful Space Launch System stage! How many people with carbon frames have had problems with cracks American Standard for Non Destructive testing ( as in... Saw what appears to be a crack in the frame sometimes ride frame. Of thought concerning accuracy of numeric conversions of measurements the same at a similar location that does n't have full. Crack as it evaporates some chipped paint ( as shown in attached screenshot ) rainbow... The cold weather '' or `` get used to the equator, does the Earth speed?.